the place is here..the time is now

[Mike]

i'm simply not interested in tired, failed party theology...especially when it is not accurate..especially when it is simply empty mudslinging

Agree to that one. I still have hope of a real civil election, but as long as people running these will do anything to stay in power or get elected, and as long as the brain dead people fall for this crap, it will it never be. All I want to hear is "This is what I've done, this is why I'm going to do", the rest is all smoke screens to confuse the confusable.

And the reason both sides can confuse and lie to the public is money pure and simple.

Britain is by no means perfect, and there are plenty of things we could learn from the US political system, but take a look at how little the three main parties spent on the 2010 election: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010 ... n-campaign

Mittens and Barry are spending that a week at the moment? It's disgusting, it really is.

Everything is such a bigger scale in the US very hard to compare. Great Britain can be canvassed in a helo on weekend. Canada is a much larger country than the US but is just about 20% less of everything. Yep, tons of money. Employs lots of people who want to get their guy in so they can maybe get a 4 year gig, then become a lobbyist when it's over and make real money. How many 24 hours news networks, do they really need, how many reporters really need to be covering the White House. Only alternative is to limit everything and who really wants to do that. Nope, ain't going to happen unless some alien race lands on this planet and tells them to or else.

[mr h atom]

alien race...who says they haven't ..????

...and, as far as it goes about everything being on a bigger scale down here.??

you been talkin' to my wife again ?

[mr h atom]

soooooo...not to really have a wanting to re-open this can of worms, but...i just, finally, watched the eastwood speech...

as a R, i can see why so many, including romney, tried to shy away from it: it was, at times, rambling...at times even incoherent, spiked often with cute satire...but...the problem with all the points he tried to make is that nearly all the problems he mentioned...bush and R policy created...

bush created gitmo and the ten year war...when obama tried to shut both down,the R's got in the way: he does have to clear that sort of thing thru congress...

i happen to firmly believe that gitmo, its kangaroo courts and just about everything that has anything to do with the 'patriot act' is about as unamerican as can possibly be..if we truly are a beacon for justice, we should be able to proudly hold our enemies on trial right here in the good ol' USA..and many of my countrymen feel the same way..quite a few agencies pushed hard to get that all done..but the R's ? they ran a campiagn of fear and demagogery...and too many fell for it...that is not a failing of obama...that is a failing of us

the unemployment is a direct result of the economic crash that came because of endless tax cuts, overspending by both parties, and deregulation...none of which had anyhting to do with the obama admin...presidents do not create jobs, they try to create the environment that is ameniable for job creation; this takes effort from all sides, not just a president - and obama, for all the misinformationbeing passed on, has yet to raise federal taxes on anyone...they are at the same rate they were when he took office: the lowest rate they've been for 60 years...i watch a wide variety of business shows and to a man, they all have been overly quizzical as to why the business sector has not done more to get the ball rolling...the condition have been prime for several years...they have sat on cash reserves and not hired, not created new jobs...

it'd be nice to proclaim romney gods gift to businessmen but the truth is he is little more than an overhyped investment analyst...so while clint is mocking obama for not creating new jobs...he is lauding a guy who, if the economic benefit/profit is not entirely in his favor, will shut down a business' and move the jobs away...and that is creating american jobs how ?

for that matter, there are more than a few successful billionaires who disagree with the romney approach...so which billionaire might be right...the one who hides some of his $$ in tax shelters overseas and shuts down business to gain extra profit ...or the ones who believes in america, americans and consistently takes the long road to economic freedom for all even if it means higher taxes...

for all his faults, biden is by far no worse a potty mouth than cheney ever was...and he never shot anyone...

if i'm not mistaken, every president has flown around the country in a gigantic plane that guzzles gas, even when campaigning...even when going on vacations...not just obama...

if clint really wants to wallow in missed opportunities, we could start with the idea that when people were drowning in la. bush told his man 'good job'...when bush was warned, in advance, by his top security men, that an attack was imminent, he looked the other way...when the attack occured and the twin towers were fell, bush sat in a room: here's a hint - there could have been no greater life lesson given to those children that day then to have the president raise his hand, stand up and apologize, tell them something important and terrible has happened and that he has to go and be president for all america...that each and every child should go home that day and hug thier moms, dads, brothers and sisters...neighbors..and let them all know that even though something very bad had happened, the president and his people were on the job finding out the answers and making america safe again...

we could do that...but we really only have to go the pre-eminent fact that romney is clearly propulgating the idea of a full-fledged return to supply-side economic theory..and that is exactly what dug us in a huge whole during the reagan/bush years...and the bush jr years...one could just blame 'spending' all one wants, but every honest analyst, including the cbo have repeatedly pointed out that that is wrong

when my party stops blaming the other guy for the exact same thing they do, and actually come up with better ideas...then they, and in this case, clint, will have a more ethical foot to stand on

final note to clint...you should've had some notes to work off of...it is the overly rambling nature that veered that speech from curmudgeonly cute into near worrisome...as an actor, you should know the value of a good script...next time, try that...

[chris]

it is comforting to know there still are moderate repubicans out there. i may not agree with everything you (r's) say...(although you make it hard for me to disagree with anything you've said...[thats you, h] in this entire thread) but i'd agree with some of it. and the fact that you are willing and able to sit and have a conversation with someone who thinks differently than you makes you stand apart (if not alone these days)

obama? a likeable guy. and i think he wants to do well. but he has no balls. he gets painted as an extreme liberal. that is laughable. by continuing to invoke too many of bush's policies...i can argue that he might not even be liberal.

lets talk about the fiscal cliff. the balance of power seems to be in obama's hand. because taxes are going up for the wealthy. it's a matter of deciding if taxes are only going up for the wealthy...or if they will go up for everyone. the tea party seems to want to spite their face by cutting off their nose. the public agrees with higher taxes for the top 2%. i mean...if we're unsure about what the public thinks...we should have an election.

social security? needs to tweaked. no doubt. but it doesn't have anything to do withour national debt. or the deficit. know how i know? reagan said it himself back in the 80's. look it up.

gun control? the NRA chief did himself no favors by defending guns right after 20 6 year old kids got shot. i own a firearm. a shotgun. a sporting gun. i don't keep it at home. i married an iowa farm girl. i keep it at her parents farm. i don't want a gun in the same house my children live in. and i wouldn't send them to a school where teachers carry concealed weapons.

let's talk about the debt ceiling. this is a real head scratcher. i don't think too many people even know what this is. to agree to raise the ceiling is to agree pay for debt already accrued. you cannot not do it. it messes with our economy, our credit rating, and the worlds economy as well. the r's want to hold this over obama's head as if it some bargaining chip. an act never-ever done in this contry before.

global warming? the whole world accepts it. even conservartives in other countries. it isn't even a political topic to me. does it have to do with oil and gas companies supporting them? yeah, i'll have a koch and a smile. since when did half this country stop believing in science?

being the obstrucionist party will not endear itself to the public. now granted. no one seems to really know any facts anyway. and what can be laughably reffered to as news sources in this country. fox news is awful. but so is msnbc. dems seem to sling mud about fox without even realizing they have their own version of the same thing.

i will give the (r's) credit, tho. they are much more organized as a party than the (d's) ever were. as a group. every one of them seems to come out with the same talking points. as if they were instructed. it makes for a stronger national message...provided they want to do something that the rest of the country believes in. the dems are all willy nille and all over the place...often infighting amoung themselves.

and let me say one more thing. i know very well there as many wingnuts on the left as there are on the right. lets stop with the conspiracies. lets stop talking out of our sphincters. lets get our news from news outlets. there is no room for opinion on a news channel. news is news. and opinion is entertainment.

[mr h atom]

funny thing is, big c...i'm not always all that moderate...i just come from the branch of conservatism that actually means it when we say we'd like govt out of our lives...so, being somewhat ethical about it, that means i do not have the slighest bit of a right to right to inflict, through govt edict/law, my beliefs upon someone else....even if i hold that thinking dear...

maybe i'm more an honest, intelligent libertarian

if two people sincerely disagree...then a middle ground must be found that allows both the freedom to make thier own path

i know there are good, hard working, honest, ethical, religious...or, even, non religious folk...tax paying 'mercans who will not agree on all things...this is not about who wins, but finding the middle ground so we can all get along...

that is something this new breed does not comport with...everyhting is always, 100% their way or the highway - - who cares about the consequences

in all this, through all the last 4-5 years, or more, it is not the (d)'s who are unwilling to compromise...as you pointed out, there are many, especially liberal, (d)'s who are not at all happy w/obama...because he has consistently tried to find a path for all even if it means the left doesn't get all that close to a treasured goal...

the current budget/fiscal cliff stalemate..which, last time i looked (a few hours ago) has fallen apart again...not because the (d)'s couldn't get enough votes to move to the middle: they did...it is entirely about the (r)'s unable to get their caucus' together to find a reasonable solution for all sides...

most of the time, i'm thinking you're quite right about obama possibly not having the cajones...he pretty much tossed UN secty rice under the bus...and he's not exactly pounding the bully pulpit to make things look good for hillary...that's gotta piss bill off, no end, after how he went to bat for barry with the single best speech/effort at last summers convention....

but i prefer to think of barry as not so much not having the cajones...but more as being like a chess player who's willing to sacrifice a pawn or two, if it gets him the endgame he wants...and so far, his track record for that is not all that bad

the (r)'s are not all that 'together' as it might seem: right now, if you don't tow the party line...you are taken out and shot...period

what may seem like keeping thier ducks all nice in a row is in fact a blind duck alley with a whole lotta corpses out back not quacking happily: you just don't talk out loud out here like i am right now if you even want to hold onto your job...you smile a lot..pretend...and work behind the scenes like some french partisan, hoping someone'll find hitler and shoot the bastard...only there's a thousand little hitlers

[chris]

the thing about obama throwing rice under a bus i'm not so sure. here's why...forget about the fake outrage by mccain...it was a tragedy. lives were lost and that always sucks. but her going on a sunday morning tv show to read what (she was authorized) to say happened...i have no problem with. because that is what happens. but...it was later reported out she had a financial interest (thru investments) in the proposed 7 billion dollar keystone pipeline which, If confirmed by the senate, one of rice’s first duties likely would be consideration, and potential approval, of the controversial project. when i
heard this i thought...well that's what may keep her from being nominated. but that's just my opinion.

i have to say...and we've dabbled in political talk here and there thru the years...it is refreshing to talk to someone about politics who seems at the very least to agree with me on what the facts are. it is a pleasure. a difference of opinion is one thing...but facts? thanks brother.

just came back from iowa for the holidays...and there my brother in law was telling me how obama was trying to break up the union he works in...and then how obama ordered the army to take away firearms from the victims of hurricane katrina immediately after the storm.

it's family though. right? smile away, smile away...

[mr h atom]

i completely agree about the mccain/graham fake outrage....don't even get me started on their complete 'pass' on colin powells far larger lies before congress...lies that cost us all far more : billions upon billions of dollars wasted...and the thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of lives lost because of it...
but when all you have if fakery...what the he!!, right ?

my thinking on rice (i hadn't heard that bit about her investments...but, let's be honest, we're not gonna find a politician who doesn't have 'investments' that they might have a conflict over...so i try not to pretend to myself that it will make one whit of difference...) is that she most likely was (and time has pretty much proven this point) just parroting whatever the spyguys told her to say...that she had no control of it...and that every congressman knows that, whether R or D, that sort of info is all controlled by the spies...

by not being 100% behind her every step of the way, barry showed that, even though some of his public statements portayed him as backing his subordinate, he was too, too willing to actually not be there when push came to shove...i don't like that, no matter what side of the aisle you're on: if your people are in trouble...and they did nothing wrong...you protect them. period

i knew obama has skillz...but directing the action of the u.s. govt right after katrina...whew !! no wonder he won both times: it was all rigged my ozbama, the gweat 'n powahfull !!

no wonder the shrub was such a failure at the time...what with barry secretly manipulating things from behind the 'chicago' curtain

my over-the-holidays worry w/ the extended fam was how many, esp. on the wifes side, would be reacting to the news bits about gun control and such: they are all avid hunters, but i never knew quite clearly where they stood as far as the nra type thinking...it was amazing, to a 't' , every one of them think the nra is completely FU'd up...and would have no problem either banning any and all assault/high powered weaponry...or severly restricting access to such...as long as they don't mess with every day normal handguns and or hunting rifles

they thought the idea of putting guns in schools to be the most ridiculous thing they'd heard anyone offer...and they all thought wayne lapierre was a complete idiot...

now...i, being of the sort of mind that says the govt really shouldn't be into banning things, have wrestled with this sort of thing...and have always come down more to a ' don't ban...but heavily regulate' kinda thing.

but they...they surprised me and would happily go further...but then again, they've always been good, hardworking, honest, ethical folk to begin with, so i guess i shouldn't be surprised in the slightest

glad i could warm your heart by simpy being reasonable...it's really not that hard...kinda comes naturally...except...maybe when 'mccartney 2', paulie in general or lindas singing come into it, right

just wait until that next album comes out...then we'll see how reasonable i am

[chris]

i agree with your fam's gun opinion. handguns and...look, i'm going to be honest. being from the chicago area...guns don't mean the same thing to me as they might mean to a fellow in a more rural setting. i do not think automatic weapons should be available. nor do i think 30 bullet clips should be. i can't think of why they would...unless to inflict damage to much and many. i don't care if a law abiding citizen owns a gun or three. but if someone came into my store with a holstered firearm...and he wasn't an officer of the law...i have no qualms asking him to bring his firearm to his vehicle while we transact business. where i come from...if someone flashes a gun...it means someone is getting shot. i cannot help but be a product of my environment.

you are spot on about obama's stand-up-for-ness. he's okay (especially since he won reelection) at acting like he means business. but whether he is too eager to make some sort of deal...like liberal economist paul krugman said...if obama says he's not going to cave...it probably means he's going to cave. i think right or wrong, the r's are much better at standing up for what they believe in. at the end of their administration, cheney was on a sunday morning news program...and he was asked how he felt about the american public being unhappy about us staying in an immensely unpopular war (iraq)...he looked into the questioners face and deadpanned...so? at first i thought what an arrogant ****wad. but then i thought...hell...at least he believes in what he's doing.

it's almost as if...one party is the party of bad ideas...but the other party is the party of...no ideas.