the place is here..the time is now

[mr h atom]

we began a rather civil, inquistive set of thoughts over on the movie site (my fault, sorry all)

but, if we continue at all, it should be here...

james made valid point about obama being painted as a 'liberal' by the (R)'s - my party affiliation -- and compared obamas left-wingedness to his own PM...

well, that is as good a place to start as any...this is one of those areas of divergance i feel my party has been absolutely lying, not just about obama, but about any and every (d)...and quite a few of it's own members...

my party, the (r)'s demanded, back in the 60's and the 70's that the (d)'s, having drifted too far left, must come back to the center..and, although it took some time, they did exactly that. the (d)'s of today are far more centrist than many in thier party would like them to be.

the reality is, my party is very quickly sprinting down a path, on nearly every level, wherein if you do not tow the current party line and swear you allegiance to either the powers that be (or grover norquist)...you will be labeled as an outsider and drummed out of any and all places..this is a full-scale war, within the party, to drive out any and all voices of discernation or thoughtfulness...

never mind each elected official is supposed to represent, to the best of thier abilities all the members of his or her constituancies: that simply cannot be done if you deny the very basic fact that their, within every constituant base, there are a wide variety of points of view on almost every issue...

both chris and james point out, as i really shouldn't have to point out, that obama is in as much hot water with the left wing of the (d) precisely because he has done exactly what virtually every (d) has done for the past 20-30 years...be far more moderate, far more centrist than either the (r)'s are willing to admit to...or that voting populace, who are not paying attention, understand.

for the (r)'s...admitting such would betray utterly the lie that he is some form of wild leftie...or that he is not trying to reach across the aisle and find solutions...

something, btw, the (r) leadership has forbidden since just before obama took office: it is the publically stated boehner/mcconnel plan to not work with this president.

so, with every issue, obama has moved center (or, caved in as chris or james might think) and the (r)'s just blast away no matter what: win-win scenario as long as no one is paying attention...

guess what ? even the esteemed EF said, that after over six years in the national spotlight, he doesn't know who obama is...no offense, EF...guess people aren't paying attention

haven't we said, supposedly, that we do not want career politicans...so we get a guy who works his way, up, and all the (r)'s can do is whine about him not being a career politician..and how do we, the people, respond ?

by buying the lie...

worse is that we supposesly despise high rolling wall street investors types just as much as we supposedly despise our congressmen....y'know, the type of greedy, overly rich, high-falutin' types who would rather eke out an extra profit on wall street by shutting down our business' and moving jobs overseas than 'trickle down' that theory to thier workers like they said they would, back when reagan was around...

and yet, in my party...that is exactly who we are about to nominate as or candidate for the highest office in the land ?!!

and the tea party ?? they like this ?!? ...guess it wasn't about all that greed after all, huh...

funny, now that i mention it, the tea party never blinked an eye when reagan, bush sr and bush jr rang up massive deficits...but let a black guy do it and we have to have a movement !

never mind that budgets have been stagnant or cut during the last 3.5 years...and that almost all the increase in the deficit is because obama kept a campaign promise and put the full war debt on the books...unlike bush who mput none of it on our nations books

i speak all this because i insist that my party...the party of ike, dole, kassebaum, baker, ford, lincoln, teddy roosevelt, simpson, mccain...needs to stop the lying...we, the (r)'s are every bit as responsible for the economic problems...possibly even more...so it is up to us to quit trying to continually turn american upon american..and come up with new solutions that will solve our problems for all, not just the wealthy...and certainly to not add to them by continuing the same failed policies of the past, as romney, so far, seems all too willing to do

[mr h atom]

now, the (d)'s...(since we really don't have a 3 or more party system: supposedly, we the people want that sort of thing, but no matter how they try, or how often...none ever take hold...that alone tells me something..so, i'll skip them altogether...we need real help, not fantasies)

the (d)'s are their own worst enemy...they don't really need the (r)'s to make them look bad: they do that fine all on their own.
yes, they can produce a budget that is just as balanced as the (r)'s...which means they won't...but, unlike the (r)'s, they've never learned how to lie about it...probably that's a good thing, yet it always comes back to haunt you and that is like the weight of a thousand worlds around thier neck: they used to be able to do that...balance a budget...they were known for it. but, with the reagan tax cuts, and every other since, all this folderol has made them dull and stupid in this area...while the (r)'s certainly shouldn't play the stupid monetary reindeer games..the (d)'s really shouldn't lope after them like a drunken donkey yelling 'pick me ! pick me !!'

hey, (d)'s you want to win the hearts and minds of the majority? do only the things you need to do, explain yourselves better...and put up a realistic balanced budget every stinking year, regardless of what the (r)'s do

and push hard for a realistic tax system overhaul...man up !

and..about all these social issues...yes...yes...it is all about 'freedom'...blah-blah-blah...but, do you know how good a job, as a party, you've done in actually explaining all that ??

a very pitiful one...

there is no way most of america wouldn't be behind you if you portrayed all these as basic, 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' issues thta are, in fact, every bit as american as apple pie...but, no...you wimper...and stammer...and whine...and no one really believes that you see any of these as a core freedom issues, no matter what the cause, if all you do is get the teeniest bit riled once in a while...and then let it drop when the bully says 'no!': all in or shut up, already!

jeez ! what ever happened to 'give me liberty or give me death !'...you're too busy protecting your pension to know no one believes you because you wimp out...

speaking of wimping out...how about how america sees you as protector of its lands...and its troops in times of war...or the bad times after the war...why aren't you pointing out, vehemently, that it is more often than not you who builds the VA hopsitals, staffs and budgets them than adequately..why aren't you screaming at the top of your lungs at the budget cuts the opposition as seen to it is the economic rule of the day...where the heck are your cajones...

why the heck have you allowed the right to define social security and medicare as an entitlement...like it is a free giveaway, when that is simply not the case: working joes pay into this system every day of thier lives...yet, where are the (d)'s in fighting that fight ?? decades and thousands of votes behind the (r)'s

the other day, i said i was mad at mccain because he couldn't tell the haters within his own party (my party) to screw off...

you...every time a (r) struts by...you lift your skirt and invite him in !!

your whole modus operandi seems to be based on that song 'you're so vain'...who cares if the twit is vain if you're stupid enough to dance with him !! every time he smiles !!!!

be proud of what you do...if it seems like no one loves you, it is precisely because no one really knows all the things you've done to make life better....or, like EF, no one knows exactly what it is you do because...drum role please...YOU HAVE SPENT THE BETTER PART OF THE LAST NEARLY 50 TO 75 YEARS LETTING THE (R) PARTY DEFINE WHO YOU ARE...
and, after all this time of rolling over and playing possum with the issues enough of the electorate, even of your own party, believe it !

and why shouldn't they ? it's not like you've actually made any real collective effort to defended yourselves...not like the (r)'s do...heck, they rally around their flag even when they know it is the wrong thing to do...because they know that the average person will respect the defense...

you.??

you offer no real defense...'well...' you wimper...'it's for the good of the people...'... you sound like an ineffectual doctor, strapping on a rubber glove and asking us to please bend over !

hey, i got an idea...try this one for once...win an election and LEAD !

[mr h atom]

and, now...begging mikes patience (if not some others: again, all apologies if so; i have no intention of making anyone mad...just, maybe, thoughtful) to its last bit...i have at least one more thing to add...

having said all that in the previous two posts...i would be beyond remiss if i didn't point out that neither party in our country (and this probably would apply almost anywhere where some good form of freedom exists as it does here) is as much at fault for all the problems we have as the average voter is...

let's face we...we simply do not demand that much, especially when it comes to honesty and integrity, from our political leaders...and we spend way too much time blaming the other guy when as often as not, it is our own guy is every bit as guilty...and it really doesn't matter what the issue is

especially in this day and age, it is beyond thoughtlessness that so many who vote do so as about as uninformed as the average voter would have been 100-200 years ago...and there is no reason other for that than sheer laziness and stupidity.

we have more information at our finger tips...more groups fact checking...more press of various types, good and bad, watching...more citizens aware and willing to share information and ideas that the rest of us really have no excuse for the lackadaisial attitude we take towards getting informed and using that information properly in the voting booth.

heck, it's sad to say, but too many of us know more about the kardashians than we do about who's running for mayor, govenor or president....

it's sad to say, but good ol' jimmy carter (and Pogo) had it right: we have met the enemy, and he is us

and, if true...all this will be far harder to change than getting either of the two parties to do so...it might shock some, but i have a feeling that alot of people who simply engage in the act of running for office at least are intelligent enough to notice there is a problem and are willing to seek a solution...

most of us think a 'problem' is when we can't get enough 'bars' to talk to our buds about that cute chick we saw last night...or our cable line is out again...

in too many ways, we deserve the govt we have..and only when we get off our lazy bottoms will any of it truly change

the people on the left have good ideas: they are not all communists or socialists...most are people of deep faith who only want what is best...the exact same thing is true on the right: they are not all nazis, racists or investment bankers rigging up the newest ponzi scheme to leave grandma high and dry...

i think the place to start is to stop trying to demonize each other...and realize that we all have good traits, interesting ideas...and the wish to move forward to a better world

let's negotiate...

[Mike]

As was said here during the '08 election, Obama was never vetted by the mass media, he was anointed, given a Nobel Peace prize for something he promised to do, not for what he did.

Promises like cutting the deficit in half, instead, adding 5 trillion more, so far. Next week during the DNC the debt will top 16 trillion.

Before taking office Obama had never signed the front of pay cheque. In other words, he never ran a company, let alone hired someone to sign their pay cheques. The American people elected a very nice person who can give awesome speeches but he simply hasn't done what he was hired to do. Blaming Bush and using the excuse of deadlock is no excuse as everyone knows he had the House & Senate majority his first two years and accomplished nothing. The policies didn't work then, they won't in another 4 years.

The RNC pointed out the states that have eliminated their debt and actually have surplus are mostly Republican governors, the rest of those states who turned around their budget went against their parties policy and adopted widely accepted republican policies. As they have proven to work.

A lot has changed, countries in Europe are in serious trouble, cities in the US are going bankrupt because they simply do not take in enough money to pay the expensive contracts they gave to unions. The US needs a serious business man with an actual track record of success and the documents, companies track records to prove it, to break the cycle of spend and handout. Very serious cuts must be made. I really don't think the majority electorate is going to fall for they typical false promises again.

Who is Romney, well we are starting to find out what kind of man he is, not from his own mouth, too humble for that, but from others he has help over the years and has never once bragged about it. Clearly never for any political gain. He is genuinely a good man who just has not given his money to charity but something much more valuable, his time. Time for a change alright.

[mr h atom]

interesting...i spend three pages laying the blame all the way around...and you only blame obama...

as a (r), i am not in any way as as enthralled as you at romneys wizardry...the fact that he is simply re-iterating the same supply-side b.s that got us into this sad shape is enough for any independant observer to know that he is not the man for this time right now...

his pick of ryan shows that rather than continuing a strong and balanced, just-right-of center approach to economic theory (like he did as gov., where he often worked with both/all sides of the aisle) he has embraced a ridged, too-far right right policy that one-third of the country supposedly loves, another third is either ambivilent or unsure of...and one third adamently opposed to (and they are not automatically wrong in that: just as with any problem, there are many viable solutions, not just one)...in the end, he did just like mccain; he chose someone who only gives him credibility with a crowd who was clearly unwilling to embrace him...

all one has to do is listen to the very far right...people like richard viguirie...to know that they see him a centrist (and, they hope, the last of his type) who is just inconveniently there to pave the way for the new breed

all the (r) run states that have achieved anything so far have done so only by slashing their budgets beyond the bone, all while still raking in tax dollars that do not get cut until jan/feb: anybody could eliminate debt under those circumstances.

besides...how exactly does one get budget surplusses, with this type of economic thinking, unless the economy is booming ? that is the theory, right ?

because, with supply side theory, the only way you get more state money (enough to pay off debt) is if all the people and all the business are doing better...are we to believe that things are rosy in all these (r) states...hmmm....must've missed that the recession was over: obama must've done some good after all...

independant observers also points out that once all those tax cuts start taking effect the budgets will have to be even more deeply cut...in my own state, unless something is done, even with all the severe budget cuts already done, we are likely to hit tens of millions of dollars in debt within 2-3 years...

and these same independant observers point out that all those (r) gov.'s are actually doing is passing the buck down to thier local constituancies (cities/counties)...who will wake up next year to find that the regular, everyday bills will still have to be paid...the schools still kept open...the police will still be needed...

what will happen is that local taxes will go up...and everybody smart knows it.

as far as the national debt...once again, the largest part of the jump came when obama fulfilled his promise to do what bush would not: put nearly all, if not all, the entire war debt on the books...it wasn't the bail-outs...it's not welfare (which, realistically, between reagan and clinton, is virtually nonexistant as a real-time budgetary issue)...not handouts...not entitlements: the war debt.

and the bail outs, most of which was started under bush ??... alot/most have been/are being paid back...with interest (which, btw, bush did not require; obama did - that is good business sense, no ? would any bank loan money to you interest free ?)

it's one thing to be pro-idea...pro-someone...heck even pro-romney...

but, with all due respect, your response is really nothing but an re-iteration of anti-obama/right wing talking points...

at this point, i'll take obama and his earnest attempts at trying real hard with honesty and integrity than take the chance on the same failed b.s. that has tumbled us into deep debt each time it is utilized...

i wish someone would've stepped forward with a far better idea, but, for me, that does not currently include romney/ryan

they have a few short weeks to convince me they might be on to something, but i've followed both for enough time to know it is not likely

[Mike]

Most everyone has already decided even if it's just a party vote and not for the man. It's the undecided and fringe votes that will decide this election again. Who will they vote for? Hope and change that did nothing and now is "forward". Talk and promises are cheap, but what was delivered? I think track records will be more important this time around, as the momentum appears to have already changed towards Romney.

Now the debates? The independents will be watching closely. Depending if the moderators actually ask serious,relevant questions, the debates should put the icing on the cake for Romney. What would you do . . . ? People are going to want answers, not just a nice smile. As per their own records Obama's speaks for itself and Romney has so much ammunition to use if he chooses too. He records of true success stories are abundant. Without teleprompter , but make the situation worse, vote for the same or vote for someone who actually has a record of successes of things he actually did himself.

Not once in the '08 campaign did I hear anyone come out and say what Obama actually did as a "community organizer", no testimonials, no faltering companies saying what he did to help them become successful. He would have made a great head of the DNC, lots of speeches and interviews there, but as president he has demonstrated very little leadership. I think the totally negative crap the dems are throwing out there will come back to bite them as per the independent vote.

One last point I heard the other day regarding Clinton and his 2nd term. Clinton moved to the center and worked with the other party, things got done with co-operation. That was brilliant for him at the time, his party didn't like it but it worked for the country. Obama won't work with his own party let alone the other side. I know it's not all his fault, he just doesn't have the experience or perhaps the right people around him to advice him of what he's doing wrong. Don't know what it is but he isn't they leader many had hoped he would be.

[mr h atom]

i'm simply not interested in tired, failed party theology...especially when it is not accurate..especially when it is simply empty mudslinging

[Mike]

i'm simply not interested in tired, failed party theology...especially when it is not accurate..especially when it is simply empty mudslinging

Agree to that one. I still have hope of a real civil election, but as long as people running these will do anything to stay in power or get elected, and as long as the brain dead people fall for this crap, it will it never be. All I want to hear is "This is what I've done, this is why I'm going to do", the rest is all smoke screens to confuse the confusable.

[mr h atom]

[james1985]

i'm simply not interested in tired, failed party theology...especially when it is not accurate..especially when it is simply empty mudslinging

Agree to that one. I still have hope of a real civil election, but as long as people running these will do anything to stay in power or get elected, and as long as the brain dead people fall for this crap, it will it never be. All I want to hear is "This is what I've done, this is why I'm going to do", the rest is all smoke screens to confuse the confusable.

And the reason both sides can confuse and lie to the public is money pure and simple.

Britain is by no means perfect, and there are plenty of things we could learn from the US political system, but take a look at how little the three main parties spent on the 2010 election: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010 ... n-campaign

Mittens and Barry are spending that a week at the moment? It's disgusting, it really is.