if there were proof of god

[chris]

we are going to try and start a grown up conversation. with grown up ideas. lets keep this conversation civil. and lets not bash anyone who may or may not disagree with our own personal beliefs.

as i get older, my views on religion are changing. i believe that fundamentally (discounting any extemists, that is), all religions have good intentions. they are about living a better life by being good and by helping others. i also believe that fundamentally, different paths to god are not all that different from each other. growing up in a big city, as i did, i met all sorts of people that practiced all sorts of religions. i didn't discount someone who was different than me just because they weren't like me. and we respected each other. we acknowledged our differences...and we were fine with it. and i still practice that til this day.

but what if (and i am talking strictly hypothetically here) there was an ancient text found, probably in the middle east. or ancient texts. something that irrefutably, scientifically proved that only one of this planets religions was right...or it proved that religion in general was a man made idea to keep people in line or act a certain way. what if there was (again, hypothetical) proof that only one path to god was the righteous one (or, no path was right). would this proof be burried? kept secret? should it? if i were a religious man, and i found proof that backed up what i had been doing my whole life, my first instinct would be to tell the world. to scream it. but would that be the right thing to do? some will have faith regardless. but if a line of religion was found to be flat out wrong...or, if all religions were proven to be false...and this news came out...well...haven't wars started for less?

lets face it, we all want to be right. we all want to be winners (can't all be like charlie sheen, tho, can we?) if it turns out what we practice is the correct path, does that mean we can do what we want because we are the chosen ones? or if we are proven wrong, do we pillage and start destroying things and countries because we are wrong and living a lie...and going to hell anyway?

i am not challenging anyone's belief system. am not trying to change anyone's mind. as i said, all shapes and all sizes. and this is not about bashing anyone's beliefs that are different. in fact, it is about tolerance. tolerance of maybe learning that you may not be on the chosen path, and having to live with that. my question is...if such proof was real and it was discovered, would it really benefit humanity to make this news public? as a former practicer myself, i'm going to side with (for the betterment of everyone, worldwide) keeping it quiet. i don't see what good it could do to prove that billions of people's belief system has been fraudulant.

what say you?

[mr h atom]

chris, iwas all set to be flip: to say something like ' if there were proof of god...i'd be in a sh!tload of trouble !'...but, instead, i decided to think about this for a moment.
you and i, we've discussed before this sort of thing & i believe we kinda see eye to eye

pardon me for being so bold, but, i don't think that you are so much a 'former practitioner' so much as you've been enlightened enough to see through the veil and realize a very common truth.

interestingly, this is one that has been in the news of late: there's this evangelical pastor, rob bell, of mars hill bible church in michigan. he recently philosophized in his book 'love wins: a book about heaven, hell and every person who ever lived' on something just along this sort of line. this is a guy educated and schooled in a version of theology that has as one its most basic tenets, you either believe in our way or else...

while at a church function, he witnessed a note left on a quotation by ghandi that basically said whatever ghandi had to say was meaningless because he was in hell since he was not a born again christian...and bell thought about that for about a second and came to the realization that ghandi was probably not in hell, and that it was awfully presumptuos of anyone to assume that is what god would do...

the truth would be that we really do not really know, as roger waters once mused, what god wants: but we sure as heck do know what his followers down here wish us to believe he does


all of this stuff is man-made ...interpretations of interpretations of stories and tales: the king james version was edited to what the catholic church wanted at that time, we know there were major sections and parts left out: and that is just the mainline stuff...the greek catholic church has thier own version.
martin luther and all the protestants are just a re-interpreation of all that...

and we all know about the differing views that come from the miasma of the koran these days....

if any new truth were to be found, i'm afraid, that if it were not specifically like in the book/movie (avery corman ?) 'oh, god', with god himself showing up to set us straight: and doing it forcefully...we will never see our way through to any real truth about any of it.

the best we can hope for it to get back to exactly where you began with your piece...we all have to realize, quickly, whether politics or religion: NONE of us have the one true answer and that, as rodney king once said, we all just need to learn to get along...together, not by force, not by coercion...but by fundementally recognizing each other, and our individualness, and just live with it.

and that will require men (and some women) to give up power over their fellow man...

yet that may be the truest path to knowing if god is real, now, isn't it: would you choose to believe, and live a good life, because it is the right thing to do, for you, as opposed to being told/taught/forced to live that way

that's actually pretty scary, pretty brave and very well thought-out, for an individual, isn't it: to choose to be good...to do good because that the way we should be, inherently

[chris]

i am not surprised one bit that you would be the one to reply to this. and yes, we have dabbled in this topic before.

i wish i shared your optimism ( i swear, i have always been the glass is half full sort of guy. how else, could you possibly explain, other than a severe drop on the head at an early age, me being a cub fan?) but we (not you and me we. but the royal we) will never see eye to eye on religion or politics (where have all the reasonable centrists gone, anyway)

when we choose a favorite cola, it isn't that someone prefers coke, they have to hate pepsi too. in chicago, you can't just choose to like the white sox, but you have to hate the cubs. your'e a ford guy? ford sucks, gm has always ruled. too many reasons to draw a line in the sand nowadays. this country is so polarized (maybe the world is too, has it always been?) that it nearly unrepairable. too set in our ways, maybe.

can it be okay to be different? is it so hard for us to accept that someone else might have a different idea, a different way, and not consider them to be a total butt-hole?

makes me sad, brother. some go on about freedom. but maybe freedom to conform is what they really mean.

[mr h atom]

optimism ?!?

shoot...i didn't think i put any of that in there..

you are so right about that cub/white sox, pepsi/coke thing: pretty sickening all around, if you ask me

true, i often play that card, but i do it simply as a ploy, a slight sarcastic jab: the collegial poke in the rib at the saturday night poker game; menat onkly to mock slightly to let you know i feel your pain w/o dwelling so fully in it.
but i am fully immersed in the live and let live motto, i can't for the life of me understand why everyone else in the world is so bloody stupid as to not understand something so blatantly simple.

but, that is just it, isn't it: it would require you to think for yourself...and yourself alone.

pretty tall order for most folk, dontcha-think ?

and you are so right: those that go on and on about freedom are usually the first to stand in line to take them away

we are a far less free country today than we were on september the tenth of the year 2001

[Lazarus_2]

No Ancient text of any kind will reveal God to be existent.
The only proof *maybe* that God exists were to be if he were to touch every individual on earth and make himself known (not in book-form, which can't be considered proof of any kind, seeing how there were so-many
belief systems already that had went before for the author to "borrow" from) .
And even then, *any sufficiently advanced civilization's technology would be indistinguishable from magic to us*

The existence of Aliens is far far far far far far far far far more likely as a matter of probability than "god"

[Lazarus_2]

all religions have good intentions.

All religions(very nearly all) have just as many bad intentions as good intentions, would be a more accurate statement.

and we respected each other. we acknowledged our differences.

"respecting people and their beliefs" is not really a good thing,
respecting people is all fine and good, but their beliefs need to come under
as rigorous scrutiny as that expected as the many fields of science.

you can't have it both ways I'm afraid...

Us Atheists don't believe we're the "chosen ones" or that we have to do anything in particular to
get to probably imagined places of infinite happiness.
Thus, Atheists do things(unless they're sociopaths, etc) out of the inherent goodness of the their own
selves, not because of fear of punishment or not getting to a certain place.

i am not challenging anyone's belief system. am not trying to change anyone's mind. as i said, all shapes and all sizes. and this is not about bashing anyone's beliefs that are different. in fact, it is about tolerance. tolerance of maybe learning that you may not be on the chosen path, and having to live with that.

this could easily be taken as you trying to challenge beliefs and trying to change minds.
"tolerance of maybe learning that you may not be on the chosen path, and having to live with that. "
sounds a lot like "I'm on the correct path, sooner or later you'll have to see that and live with it" .

if such proof was real and it was discovered

the only thing it would prove is that Aliens exist(in light of text not being enough proof),
it would have to be some unearthed item of technology that could not have existed then, now,
or even several 1000 years in the future. .

i don't see what good it could do to prove that billions of people's belief system has been fraudulant.

we don't have to prove it. that's the thing. the onus is on the person doing the claiming to prove
their beliefs correct and true.

Also, religious people *could* turn violent if they ever came to the realization what they believed for so-long, even life-long,
was fraudulent. Much more violent than they already are though? It remains to be seen.

[chris]

it's been a while, laz. welcome back. nice to see you contributing to the conversation again. it is better, somehow, when you are here.

[mr h atom]

laz, you overreach, and in doing so, you show your weakness' too plainly.

you are every bit as judgemental as those you condemn for having some sort of faith.

which really misses chris' point completely...or, more realistically, just proves you don't have to have (a) faith to be a jerk

[Lazarus_2]

If I'm being judgmental it's because it's neccessary to oppose others views.
It's much easier to just use "blanket-judgmentalism" based on previous experience/whatever knowledge one has gained from exposure
to the vastness of humanity. Saves time and effort, that I couldn't be bothered using-up.

I'm free to criticise others beliefs if I believe they're looney beliefs.
Much like I'm free to criticise somebody's claims to be able to literally fly like a bird...

[ganimed]

Interesting subject. Chris, it seems to me that your viewpoint contains a contradiction. First you say that religion is good.

they are about living a better life by being good and by helping others.

That's fine and what most of us think is true.

And then you hesitate to tell the truth (to prove most of the 'false' religions wrong by releasing the ultimate proof that you found).
Because you are afraid, that the religions are not so good, that they are in contrary no good sports at all, will not accept your truth,
will become angry, will start wars. The biggest believers will be the most angry ones.

I think it is bizarre: we all are intimidated by the religious people. We live in fear that we could hurt their feelings and they then
irrationally start a war. What a joke.

Why did the US soldiers bury Osama Bin Laden according to muslim rules? I can't see any other reason than fear of violent replies.

Many religious talkers on T.V. discussions claim, that religion is on a different level than science, that you can't compare them,
you can't ask for doubt and proof like in science, that for religion there are special rules. And of course no one has the right to hurt
the feelings of a religious man, they say.

I'd say this is all wrong. Don't let them fool you, don't fall for this cheap trick.
Chris, tell them the ultimate truth as soon as you find it. And if a new war starts then, then it is their fault, not yours. Give
them a chance to behave peaceful for once in their life, maybe they'll surprise you then.