September 11, 2001 - In memory of . . .

[Len]

Sorry Steve, but that's exactly the reason why you won't see me here anymore. I could handle the football posts, I could handle the nonsense posts, hell I even enjoyed them, but this really is too much for me. I am an old-fashioned pacifist. I do not believe in violence. I understand the need for revenge -I am human- and I even understand the need to get rid of regimes that are oppressive to its peoples. But I cannot and will not condone a war which will see the deaths of thousands of innocents, whether they be American, Iraqi, Afghan, or whatever. Americans have always appeared to me as a very proud and patriotic people (and I know a lot better than any average European), and in many ways, they have every right to be. As I said, it is a great country with a lot of things to be proud of. But this government is not one of them.

Seriously, this is it for me.

[Steve-o]

Well, Len, I seriously think that the forum will not be the same without you. So we disagree about our government---if we openly criticized something/someone that you believe in, I would expect for you to respond. Besides...who's going to ride me about my Paint/Budwieser laden chat sessions? LOL. Sorry to see you go, man, but we'd be nuts not to respond comments like that.

[Ram1]

Right, Steve. Len, I serioulsy wish you didn't go. Listen man, we're having a heated debate. Nobody's saying they hate you or Brains. If something is gonna be posted about the worst terrorist attack in our nation's history, we're gonna (and should) respond. And when you talk about "revenge", nobody here said that. We have to respond to the Taliban/Al Qaeda to take out their evil, so they will not strike anymore. We've already had other threats against our safety from them. Not just us, but other places in the world as well. It's great to think as a pacifist and be nonviolent, man. Man, I SO DEEPLY WISH matters could be solved like that. But we have to be realistic. This is the 21st century. Heck, forget the 21st century, wackos like these have been spreading their evil FOREVER. Just look at the Nazis. You CANNOT peacefully deal with these people, man. That's just the REALITY of it. We can't just have almost 3,000 of our innocent people killed, who were minding their own business one morning, and just say "Oh well. It's a shame, but we don't want anymore bloodshed, so we'll let the Taliban off the hook." Dude, that's living in a fairytale. If we and our allies are gonna defeat this evil, we HAVE to go to war. There's no way around it. Bin Laden and his cohorts aren't gonna discuss this over tea and crumpets. Like Steve said, sometimes you have to "walk a mile" in someone elses shoes. May God always bless you and your family, Len. But, if one day your mother or your brother's head was blown off on their way to work one morning, I think maybe you'd let go of some of those pacifist beliefs. Many things can be solved in this world peacefully, man. International terrorism is not one of them. In order to reach a goal of peace in the world, lives are gonna be lost eventually. It's the ultimate price to pay, but it's just a reality.

[Mike]

This is my fault I should have put this into NPC, but in respect to 9/11/02 I thought it was more appropriate in a MACCA topic.

This has gotten very political so I'm moving it to NPC>

[Ram1]

Well, I think it was TOTALLY appropriate for you to originally place it under Macca Topics, Mike. Especially considering Paul's profound support of our country over the past year. But after posts by Chris and then Brains (and I'm not "blaming" either one), things were naturally gonna heat up. However, I understand your point that since this has become "political", it belongs in NPC.

[jet]

I don't think it matters where this was posted originally. The fact is that a year ago thousands of people lost their lives in what was the worst act of violence this world has ever seen. Like most people, I was and am still totally horrified by what happened. It's just a shame that what started out as a topic meant as a mark of respect to all the victims of this outrage has ended up with people who regularly post on this forum bickering and falling out with each other for whatever reason. I only hope it's not too late to put things right between all concerned. It would be a shame to let an act of terrorism like this spoil the unity I'm sure we all feel as a result of being part of this forum.

[Brains]

Wow, this got heated.

I'm sorry to see Len go. But I fail to see what Ram's or anyone's pro-Bushness has to do with being able to discuss Paul and his music. I don't agree with Bush's policies (Kyoto!) but the fact that Ram does, is no obstacle whatsoever for me to be chatting with him.

And Ram, I said (or at least I believe I did, and if I didn't, I should have) that the USA has every reason (and right) to defend itself, by attacking the Taliban and Al Qaida and bring the guilty ones to justice. In that I'm not a pacifist.

Whatever Al Qaida thinks America did wrong, it is NO reason at all to commit the horrible crimes we all witnessed last year. Nothing can justify the attacks.

This all still does not mean I agree with all America's actions regarding foreign affairs. You can see it again now, Bush wants to go and attack Iraq without the consent of the UN. Of course Iraq has the most evil leader you can think of, and it's best to see him go. But I don't believe that's the task of the Americans alone. It should be done under UN supervision. But Bush is too arrogant to consider the rest of the world. And that, I think, should change to prevent another 9-11. It's not that America deserved to have thousands of innocents killed, but I fear that if it doesn't change its arrogant ways, some other fundamentalist group of suicide hi-jackers or something like that will think it's necessary to attack America.

[Steve-o]

WOW--more baseless arrogance talk. Why don't we just close this thread up and let all of the people who think they "know" our policies so well, start their own US bashing website. You say "WOW-- this got heated", Brains, and then you pile right back on again. Amazing arrogance on YOUR part, man. I refuse to discuss this stuff anymore with clueless people.

Back to the man and his music.

[Brains]

And Ram, I'd like to apologize for calling Bush a moron. He's not the brightest president you've ever had, and I don't agree with his policies, but I didn't consider the fact that he's still your president, and by offending him I'm offending you. I'm sorry for that.

Jet, I too hope that this discussion will not spoil the unity we have. For me this difference of opinion does not change my attitude towards the other's as far as Paul is concerned. Too bad it does for Len.

Len, if you're reading this: I'm too ashamed that our government is behind Bush whatever he says. Some of my best friends voted LPF. The fact that I don't agree with them politically doesn't mean I can't talk to them on other topics.

[Brains]

Ok, let's close it. I don't want to go on arguing any more than you do. I didn't mind letting it get heated, but I agree it's going too far. I'm sorry. Back to Paul.